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This business about the celebrity chef who seems to be trying to adjust his
brand to appeal to people’s ethical concerns has raised a lot of questions.
-Is it ethical to stigmatize farmers who are taking great care of their animals, but who are producing something that most people don’t eat, to raise awareness of abuse by factory farmers who abuse their livestock?
-Many of the animal rights folks claim that poultry that is raised for foie gras is suffering because their livers are enlarged, that this is evidence of disease and therefore, because they are diseased they are suffering. But this neat little piece of circular reasoning seems flawed.
There is no hard science that shows that a goose or duck with an enlarged liver is in any pain. Heightened levels of liver enzymes that seem to be related to stress have been detected, but there is no proof that these enzymes are the cause of or the result of pain. They could simply be there because the liver needs to crank them out to deal with the extra work the liver has to do to metabolize the heavy load of nutrients. People who eat too much and become overweight have the same problem and not coincidentally, often have enlarged livers. But many overweight people seem perfectly happy and free of pain daily. Why should a duck be any different?
If you ask me, we should be lobbing our rebukes at smithfield, tyson, perdue, et al.
to wit
There’s another Joe Pa and he couldn’t be ruder
he’s the nasty old man named Joe Pa Luter
His animals live in a sardine shed
he’s the terror of the Mississippi riverbed
He’s the nasty old man named Joe Pa Luter
Dough, grab the dough, grab the dough, grab the dough.
“Is it ethical to stigmatize farmers who are taking great care of their animals, but who are producing something that most people don’t eat, to raise awareness of abuse by factory farmers who abuse their livestock?”
For me, strictly on a personal level, I need to see more hard evidence that Foie Gras geese are not being abused. The evidence I have seen to date does not make me feel comfortable that, at least with the two US producers, this is the case.
All of this thought has raised more questions for me, which I have written about over on my blog.
http://thefoodieblog.blogspot.com
Obviously, I’m in a strong questioning period right now about where I stand on animal treatment/consumption. I’m blaming you, the City of Chicago, Michael Pollan, John Mackey, and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Curses to all of you.
“People who eat too much and become overweight have the same problem and not coincidentally, often have enlarged livers. But many overweight people seem perfectly happy and free of pain daily. Why should a duck be any different?”
I suppose because (unlike people) the duck doesn’t have a choice, Bob. Surely if it did, it would be working out on a Pilates Reformer a couple of times a week, as well as doing some Urban Rebounding now and then in order not to blimp out.
“There is no hard science that shows that a goose or duck with an enlarged liver is in any pain.”
There is basically no hard science that shows that any animal is ever in any pain. There is nothing that can be measured to determine the presence, absence, or degree of pain. We (meaning veterinary professionals) make that determination based on subjective assessment of behavior.
“Heightened levels of liver enzymes that seem to be related to stress have been detected, but there is no proof that these enzymes are the cause of or the result of pain.”
Actually, levels of stress hormone (cortisol) in foie gras ducks remain unchanged before and after feeding. They appear to be experiencing NO measurable levels of stress from the gavage.
“They could simply be there because the liver needs to crank them out to deal with the extra work the liver has to do to metabolize the heavy load of nutrients.”
Elevated liver enzymes are actually a fairly sensitive indicator of actual liver damage. Liver enzymes do their job inside liver cells, not in the bloodstream, so they only leak into the bloodstream when the liver cells are damaged. That said, there are no studies which measure levels of liver enzymes in blood of foie gras ducks (at least none that I have found).
“People who eat too much and become overweight have the same problem and not coincidentally, often have enlarged livers. But many overweight people seem perfectly happy and free of pain daily. Why should a duck be any different?”
I would strongly caution against drawing any parallels between human liver disease and what is seen in foie gras ducks. I can easily think of at least two species — cats and cows — who commonly develop serious and sometimes fatal liver disease due to fatty infiltration at a fraction of the degree that is seen in the foie gras ducks. But the underlying physiology of fatty liver formation in these birds is completely different from that seen in mammals.
I think foie gras has become such a polarizing issue in the food world, but it is not nearly as clear-cut an issue as either side would have you believe. I believe that 1) the farmers for the most part treat their ducks well; 2) the ducks are pretty much happy; 3) the ducks are pushed into a state of near-fatal liver disease. It’s frustrating to me that there are no studies which show that #3 is true, but there are also no studies which show that it is false. The entire situation of foie gras production is unnatural, including the type of duck which is used, and I think it is healthy for people to step back and really think about the issue. But mostly people just like to call each other stupid.
To be clear: I am an omnivore and have no problem with eating meat.
That said, I do have a problem with foie. I don’t care how well the birds are treated, force-feeding them to produce abnormal livers, no matter how tasty, crosses my own personal line of ethical treatment of an animal. However, I’m also wary of saying that just because I feel that way, then foie should be banned. If I feel that producing foie is unethical, I can choose not to eat it.
bonnibella wrote: “3) the ducks are pushed into a state of near-fatal liver disease. It’s frustrating to me that there are no studies which show that #3 is true, but there are also no studies which show that it is false.”
Bonnibella, your argument is cogent and considered. It does push toward a larger issue (in terms of cope, food-wide). How much do we value “humanely-raised” animals when we still intend to kill them? In our society, most meat we eat is raised for slaughter.
I think it puts the lie to feel-good concepts like “free range chickens.” A free-range drumstick is still a dead chicken leg served up for chow.
Foie gras is from a dead goose. At the end of the day, the logical outcomes of this current debate are either to continue producing foie gras or stop killing animals for food.
I don’t want a humanely-killed animal for lunch. I do want meat for lunch. My conscience isn’t going to be salved by knowing the cooked carcass on my plate was raised “humanely.” I’ll still know it met an untimely end to its life.
Bring on the foie gras, and more of it. And everything else humans have been carving out of animals and throwing over fire for about the last 100,000 years.
Fiat, how dare you be reasonable? You must call for an immediate ban on foie to TRULY be ethical.
/sarcasm
Seriously, it’s good to hear from a reasonable person on the anti- side to disrupt the stereotypes it’s all too easy to envision. If that makes any sense.
“bonnibella wrote: “3) the ducks are pushed into a state of near-fatal liver disease. It’s frustrating to me that there are no studies which show that #3 is true, but there are also no studies which show that it is false.”
Bonnibella, your argument is cogent and considered.”
I agree that the above argument is cogent. For the record, however, I did not make it. Steve did. I’m the one who made the (far less) cogent argument that, were they given the choice, ducks would be doing Pilates instead of engaging in force-feeding techniques.
“Foie gras is from a dead goose. At the end of the day, the logical outcomes of this current debate are either to continue producing foie gras or stop killing animals for food.”
This is certainly the conclusion that organizations like Farm Sanctuary and PETA would like you to come to. This is also why I generally do not support organizations like Farm Sanctuary and PETA.
“I don’t want a humanely-killed animal for lunch. I do want meat for lunch. My conscience isn’t going to be salved by knowing the cooked carcass on my plate was raised ‘humanely.’ I’ll still know it met an untimely end to its life.”
Just because we cause the death, it does not mean that everything preceding it (i.e., life) is pointless. Given two options 1) torture, then death; 2) happy life, then death, option #1 is clearly worse than option #2. Otherwise, what point is there in attempting to alleviate any suffering, animal or human?
PETA and other animal groups have leverage on this issue because they have photos of ducks with their necks forced between bars of a cage in filthy conditions while being force fed and the ducks living for YEARS in cages.
Let’s get over this – show me a decent farm with the ducks living outside and I as a vet nurse will change my opinion greatly.
It cracks me up that with the threat of bird flu wiping out the entire human race we are all too spoiled to insist that birds are raised outside (sunlight kills viruses) and just change a few things because we are too lazy. We so deserve a pandemic.
PETA can be so offensive – its a shame because I have regular contact with them and they are genuinely wonderful folks who just want to see decency prevail.
ps PETA states clearly on their site that they have no issue with tribal groups killing animals for food. If a few steps were taken to ensure the same here they would lay off.
Again, farmers, show pictures of humane conditions for the ducks and 18 days (if I’m correct) of gavage won’t be such a big deal.
Maya, this info is taken from the website of Carafe Bistro here in Portland:
After the protestors started making comments about the ill treatment of the ducks, I decided to visit the farm to see for myself. I flew to California to Sonoma Foie Gras to meet the owner, Guillermo Gonzalez and visit his facilities. The first thing I saw entering the farm was many young ducks, grazing in fields shadowed by Oak groves with very easy access to water and feed and plenty of room to graze. Then, Guillermo took me into a large barn cooled by huge fans where the ducks spend their last week at the farm. It was feeding time and the animals were calm, quiet waiting for their food ration in large, clean pens. What really impressed me was how respectful of the animals everyone in the farm was. The facilities are clean and well taken care of. I didn’t witness any violence, disrespect, cruelty or any of the ducks stressed or debilitated by the process. And the routine of everyone’s labor indicated how this same process is done the same way everyday, day after day.
As far as animals being raised for food, Guillermo’s operation is second to none. I’ve visited many chicken, beef and veal plants and can attest on how much better this one is than all others that I have seen.
We are proud to serve Sonoma Foie Gras at Carafe. The quality is the best I have worked with and we give every piece of Foie Gras the respect it deserves.
For more information, please visit Sonoma Foie Gras website:
http://www.sonomafoiegras.com/
Scorcha, first of all I’ve read this blog several times and I must know where your name comes from.
I appreciate the info about that farm. It sounds wonderful – just one caveat, though. Being that I’m a sceptical scientist (like that big grump on CSI)I would like to see it for myself. Are there pictures?
Geez, I really do sound like that overly pent-up dude. I can almost hear his voice! I need a life.
Anyway, it sounds lovely and he would do the foie gras business a HUGE favor to post photos online! Then the PETA folks would have to eat their words, at least in this instance.
Thanks again for the info
Unfortunately, Sorcha’s not my real name, just my online alias. *G* It’s an old Scottish name, though. My real name is very mundane and boring.
Really, I think the people who are stridently anti-foie aren’t going to change their minds no matter how many humane farms they see. It’s the process itself they object to, not how humanely it’s carried out.
As for PeTA, well, the less I say about them, the better.
First of all I’m a vegan and have never eaten foie gras nor plan to. The geese involved in the production of foie-gras probably do not suffer to any greater degree than your average factory farmed veal calf or battery cage hen of which there are orders of magnitude more. Having seen videos of the process, I do not see how one could make the argument that it is not uncomfortable; as Sorcha said above, the process it self necessitates an element of cruelty.
Beyond the practice itself, I am surprised by the condemnation of Puck and other high profile chefs who have chosen to use in their minds what are more ethical sources of meat. Are they being inconsistent in responding to the outcry of the moment against foie and negelecting to address the far larger issue of factory farmed meat in general? Sure. Is it partially motivated by publicity? Well again who am I to say but I would hazard that it is. That being said is it not better to have some integrity preparing food rather than dismissing ethical considerations wholesale? No one is banning foie here; someone is making the private decision that this product crosses an ethical line. What is so wrong about that?
Sean, I think what we’re responding to, with a bit of cynicism, is his making a big announcement about it. Now, it’s one thing to announce you’ll only be using free-range meat and eggs, because many people prefer those and would conceivably be more likely to eat at your restaurant. But making a big announcement that you’re taking foie off your menu just seems to be a publicity move. As someone else already said, why not just remove it without the fuss?
I’m sure Bob will be glad to know I answered my own question. I was whining and complaining that I needed pictures. I went to that ultra-scientific website, Google, and searched for images. Here they are:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=foie+gras+farms&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
I’m amused that all the cruel pics are from America but in France the geese look like they’re at the spa. I get it now.
It’s no secret that animals are treated better in Europe. Oh well, I was foolish not to have guessed before.
A SIDE NOTE: I know I’ve said this before, but the best commentary on the foolish food fight between animal rights activists and the food industry is a book called Entanglements. The book is perfect for this type of situation -it demonstrates one thing -
Both sides are wrong.
This debate just goes on and on. I mean, have the PETA people et. al ever BEEN to one of the giant slaughterhouses that processes the majority of beef in this country? There is nothing humane about factory farming and the ways that those animals are being treated. They “fatten them up” the same way just prior to the slaughter, etc. They are penned up and fed more than normal. Just because the “farmer,” and I use that term loosely, is not shoving the food down the cow’s throat does not mean it’s not the same thing. I have seen and read about OTHER approaches like the ones talked about on this blog and other sites in which the geese RUN to the farmer for their feeding. And where the animals are in fact treated quite humanely and with care prior to their death, MUCH better than any factory farm out there, so I agree that it becomes more of an issue of – do you want us to stop killing animals and consuming them, or what. Everything else, to me, is just splitting hairs and differences in style and care about what you’re doing and the animals you’re doing it to. Banning one particular method, especially a method where there are several proven instances of animal abuse NOT taking place, while the other operations (factory farming, giant slaughterhouses), many of which are much more heinous in my opinion, is STUPID.
The NYTimes’ editorial on Puck and Foie from today’s paper:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/26/opinion/26mon4.html?ex=1332561600&en=22de27c703f2dbee&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink